Senior Medicare Patrols (SMPs) assist Medicare beneficiaries to detect and report health care fraud and abuse. SMPs conduct outreach to educate the community, recruit and engage volunteers, and receive and investigate complaints from Medicare beneficiaries. In today’s episode, nursing home abuse lawyers Rob Schenk and Will Smith talk in depth about SMPs with guest Nathan Coflin a representative of the Georgia Senior Medicare Patrol Program.
Schenk: Hello out there and welcome and thank you once again for joining us. My name is Rob Schenk.
Smith: And I’m Will Smith.
Schenk: And we are your hosts for the Nursing Home Abuse Podcast. Like I said before, this is episode 104. Man, that’s a lot. We’re triple digits – 104 episodes. That’s like if this was some kind of sitcom, like if this was Seinfeld, we would have the flashback episode where it’s just the highlights, you know what I’m saying?
Smith: Oh yeah.
Schenk: The Golden Girls, they would be like, “Remember that time?” and then it would fade and they would show the previous episode, whatever the highlights were. Golden Girls, by the way, was one of Will’s favorite programs growing up.
Smith: Ah, here we go. Yeah. Programs.
Schenk: What do you mean?
Smith: TV shows.
Schenk: Oh. All right. Golden Girls was one of Will’s favorite TV shows.
Schenk: Not TV programs.
Schenk: Anyways, today, we’re talking about Senior Medicare Patrol Programs, and those can be state-specific. Georgia has one but this is something that not a lot of people know about. Will, just so we’re on the same page here, let’s talk about the SMPs. What do we got here?
Smith: So the Senior Medicare Patrol Program is the SMP, and it helps both Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries prevent, detect and report healthcare fraud. It’s a largely volunteer organization made up of retired professionals who themselves, a lot of times, tend to be on Medicare. So a lot of retired doctors, lawyers, teachers, bankers – I don’t know why they choose to do it that way, but they do and we’ll find out talking with Mr. Coflin, but they go out and their goal is to help senior citizens who are on Medicare, prevent fraud, abuse and waste.
Schenk: Of the system.
Smith: Of the system. In 2011, for example, they saved the government about $106 million.
Schenk: That’s a lot of cheese.
Smith: That’s a lot of cheese.
Schenk: And Will and I bring the cheese every week. Anyways, to segue, Will mentioned Mr. Coflin. Again, this is one of these conversations that Will and I are not going to have alone. It’s going to be a dialogue with a guest, a special guest, and that special guests name is Nathan Coflin. Will, can you tell us – I only want the bare minimum information of Mr. Coflin, if you could, please.
Smith: Well he is a graduate of Old Dominion University and the Atlanta area representative for the Senior Medicare Patrol. He’s been a human services advocate for in-need populations for the past five or six years. And so this is a federal program and he is the local representative here in Atlanta for the SMP.
Schenk: That’s right. And Nathan, welcome to the show.
Nathan: Hi, thanks for having me.
Schenk: All right. So we had just mentioned some of the basics of the Senior Medicare Patrol, and we want to go straight to the horse’s mouth. Can you just give us a basic background of what Senior Medicare Patrol is and what’s it doing in the state of Georgia? What are you guys doing?
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. Senior Medicare Patrol is actually a nationwide nonprofit program. We’re entirely funded by the Administration on Community Living, and we exist in all 50 states, Washington D.C., Guam, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
I represent the Atlanta Metro Area, and basically they estimate that Medicare loses $60 billion each year to Medicare fraud, waste and abuse. So they pay our program to go out there, educate seniors, empower them to best protect their Medicare from that fraud, waste and abuse.
Schenk: Oh wow, okay. That’s a lot of money.
Smith: And it’s all volunteer, right?
Nathan: Correct. We have a network of volunteers and some paid staff to go out there to really educate. We really like to engage seniors themselves in their own communities where they live in, their retirement community or an assisted living community, to empower them to empower their peers in their communities to protect their Medicare.
Smith: Do you work closely or have any affiliation with the ombudsman program?
Nathan: We do work with them on some quality of care issues. Those aren’t something we cover directly, but because we are related, we work with all those programs and make sure that seniors get the care that they need and that they’re not being defrauded out of their money in any way.
Smith: I just think I’ve always thought that it’s interesting and it’s a huge benefit that we have this because we have people who are willing to volunteer and do this stuff, and the ombudsman program, obviously somebody like Melanie McNeill who is the head of our program here in Georgia is an employee, but it’s largely made up of a lot of volunteers, and the SMP is the same way. How do you find the volunteers to do this?
Nathan: I mean we love our volunteers. They’re definitely a vital part of our process. Normally when I’m out presenting to our communities, I break up our volunteer program and encourage people that like if it’s something that’s right for them and they want to volunteer their time, a lot of especially newly retired seniors, they’ve come from really high-skilled jobs in law or doctors, all kinds of stuff, we have people from all kinds of backgrounds, and if they want to volunteer their time to the good cause.
Schenk: And Nathan, let’s start from a 40,000-foot view. What literally, maybe not literally, what is healthcare fraud? What is Medicare fraud? I mean we know that it’s stealing and stuff, but from your standpoint, what is it?
Nathan: Yeah, that’s a great question. In short, Medicare fraud is when your Medicare is being charged for service of products you did not receive. It can be a one-time occurrence or it could be an ongoing issue.
Schenk: So is this something that you investigate on behalf of a family member who is taking care of a loved one in a private setting or is this something that you’re looking at at an institutional basis in terms of, like, a nursing home committing Medicare fraud? Do you do one or the other or both?
Nathan: I think it’s definitely either. Really Medicare fraud comes in many, many different forms, and we’re there to help the Office of the Inspector General who does the investigating, but we do the reporting, making sure that this is something that looks like it could be fraudulent. We definitely encourage seniors who are confused, who aren’t sure if it is fraud, to give us a call either way because we do want to make sure that anything that is potential fraud, it gets to the Office of the Inspector General for investigation. We hope that it can stop on our end. We help out to determine if it’s legitimate, and it can happen in either of those situations.
Smith: You know, I think it might be helpful – can you give me an example, like a real-world example of what you might find or what you might report?
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. One of the biggest instances of Medicare fraud happens in the home healthcare industry. Say a doctor orders that a home healthcare nurse comes by your home for five days a week for four hours a day, and they’re billing Medicare for five days a week, four hours a day. These people in this situation are often most vulnerable because if Medicare is wanting to pay for that person, they’re already sick likely, so maybe that person is coming by for two days a week for two hours a day, yet Medicare is getting paid for that full amount of what the doctor ordered. So at that point, the seniors are not getting the medical care that they need. They’re also defrauding Medicare for a different amount than what is being accurately given.
Schenk: What kind of fraud do you see in a long-term care setting in nursing homes, assisted living facilities, that type of thing? What’s a common form of fraud in those instances?
Nathan: Well a lot of times medical equipment and stuff that shouldn’t be billed for at all in a nursing home setting because it should be included knowing that they’re being in a nursing home, they will be billing for medical supplies that should encompassed by the all-inclusive billing by the nursing home itself.
Smith: Like they’re charging a resident for a lift or something like that?
Nathan: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly, the durable medical equipment, that’s definite the biggest, in terms of viability in a nursing home setting.
Schenk: What do you think, in your opinion, you talked about home care being problematic, what’s an under-detected, like what’s a type of fraud that you, like, “Man, I wish I could get more of those guys?”
Smith: Or if there is one?
Nathan: So much of the fraud happens over the phone. In Georgia, those who own Medicare have received their new Medicare cards that do not include their Social Security numbers. Right now, one of the biggest instances of fraud happening is people calling, claiming they’re from Medicare and simply saying, “Have you received your new Medicare card?” The senior, of course, says, “Yes,” and, “Can you please confirm that number for us?” And now their number is compromised. Medicare will never, ever call you without you calling them.
Smith: I actually got that call myself, which I thought was amusing because I’m 40 years old, so I’m not even looking yet at Medicare.
Schenk: From an age standpoint.
Smith: From an age standpoint. But yeah, I got that call the other day, and it’s so clearly fraud, but the problem is I have a lot of older relatives and I deal with the elderly on a daily basis. And I think they’re not accustomed to that level of deceit. And when they get a phone call like that, like this is official, it’s somebody on the other end saying they’re from Medicare, and they’re going to give their number. And it’s – I don’t know how you stop that though.
Nathan: Exactly. I mean so many of the fraudsters that are good at what they do, they’ll call and they will – they might not be anywhere near the Atlanta area, but they’ll have a spoof Atlanta area code number. They’ll make that small talk, build that rapport, say, “How are your grandkids doing?” “Did the Georgia Bulldogs win last night?” things like that to get the seniors comfortable and then come in on the back end and get that vital healthcare information from them.
Smith: That’s exactly what they did with me, and they mentioned something about the weather, because we were having slightly unusually hot weather at the time, and I was like, “Man, I’m glad that I have trained my mother, I’ve told her never trust anyone on the phone that isn’t me.” But yeah, it’s good that you guys are out there catching them.
Schenk: And so Nathan, can you walk us through, walk us through your day? Are you fielding complaints? Are you doing investigations? Are you putting on a Sherlock Holmes hat and going out to facilities or to homes? Walk us through that.
Nathan: It can be a little bit of all the above. My main purpose, being inside the community itself, is really to go out there and educate. I work community health fairs, I might sit at a desk. I like to go into senior centers and assisted living facilities and give presentations, because my message isn’t necessarily the most complicated message in the world, which I love. It’s a very simple message. I’m just teaching seniors how to protect their own healthcare and just trusting in their gut to know when something might be fraudulent, not giving that information over the phone, knowing when to kind of take a step back and say, “Is this right?” I really want seniors to investigate and have a little know-how, to look at their Medicare summary that they’ve received in the mail or an explanation of benefits they’ve received in the mail, don’t just throw it off to the side. Look at them and see do all these charges look like legitimate things I’ve received or appointments that I went to?
Schenk: That makes sense. So yeah, let’s elaborate on that. So Nathan, take us through three or four things that a senior can do to help avoid Medicare fraud, like what’s the top three or four recommendations that you would give?
Nathan: Well one, never give out healthcare information over the phone to unsolicited callers. And sometimes they’re just looking to steal your information and sometimes they are a business who will send you a knee brace or a back brace, but you don’t know if that knee brace or back brace is right for you. There will be fraudulent doctors that will sign off on it that you’ve never seen that will allow Medicare to pay for it, but you really want your own doctor to be your big resource. Your own doctor is the one who examines you who will know what is right and what is best for you. Don’t listen to some self-person who’s just looking to get a quick buck. Talk to your own doctor on what equipment is right for you over someone trying to sell you something over the phone.
Secondly, like I spoke about, check your Medicare summary notices. If you’re on an advantage plan, it’ll come with an explanation of benefits. But either way, you want to really look at those bills, not even bills, they’re explanations of benefits. Since this is not a bill, people throw them off to the side, and make sure that every appointment you’re going to is something that you actually went to. I think it’s the best thing to do, look at this explanation of benefits says I went to the podiatrist on the 15th of June. I go to my planner to show okay, I did go to an appointment on the 15th of June. Many of our seniors go to many doctor’s appointments a month, so the more you keep track of that on paper and you can reference back to it, the more you make sure you’re not being ripped off.
Schenk: That makes sense. So making sure that you don’t give out your ID or your information over the phone and making sure that you or the senior, or at least someone in the senior’s family is keeping track of what care is being provided are two ways to prevent fraud. What else do you got in your toolkit there? What else can we do to help prevent this fraud?
Nathan: Well we always want you to – if you look at see something and it doesn’t look quite right, we want you to call the Georgia SMP, Senior Medicare Patrol. We can be reached at 1-877-272-8720, and we want to be your first resource to protect against that fraud. Sometimes because medical billing by its nature is confusing, it might be something that’s legitimate and we can help you find that out. Honestly, we hope that you do. We hope you call us and we look into it and it shows, “Oh, actually because you had labs done and your labs were read by a different doctor than the doctor you saw and it’s a legitimate charge,” and we can help you look into that. Don’t feel afraid to call us just because it might not be fraud. We hope we look into it for you and it’s not fraud.
Schenk: That’s a good point. So let’s actually do this. Let’s step back, Nathan. Let’s say there’s an individual out there that suspects fraud and they call 877-272-8720, Georgia Senior Medicare Patrol. What are they going to hear? Is it a voicemail? Is it a human person? And then from there, what happens?
Nathan: We have a great team dedicated to helping seniors. We hope we don’t get a voicemail – sometimes we’re too tied up with people, but we kind of get a little more information from you and we try to figure out exactly what the charge is for. We’ll help you look at your MSN to see what exactly it is you think is fraudulent, and we kind of further advocate for you and go into try and figure out what this charge is for and if it’s not fraud.
Schenk: And how long does that process take? Is that something you all do over the phone? Like is it you’re talking to somebody for 30-40 minutes going through this stuff? Or do you go on site?
Nathan: It’s really hard to say on a hypothetical. Some things are very simple – we can help and do it over the phone. Some other times, if it is a little more intricate – we will, I’ll go out there, I’ll look at that MSN, help people figure it out in person. It really just depends on the extent of the issue.
Schenk: Is there anything that you find that people think is fraud but is not actually fraud that you can educate people right now on? Has that ever happened?
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That’s something I kind of touched on earlier, because medical billing itself is a very confusing process, typically a doctor on their bill is a doctor they have not heard of before, and it’s because their labs were done or labs were read by a different doctor than the doctor that they say. That’s a legitimate charge, so it is a little confusing because it seems it could be potentially fraudulent in a lot of seniors.
Smith: Yeah, in the same way that one of the things we have to learn early on as personal injury attorneys is that bills are extremely confusing. You go to an ER and it’s not just the ER bill. There’s the radiology bill.
Schenk: The radiologist’s uncle.
Smith: Yeah, there are different labs that test different aspects of different things.
Schenk: And you’ll get those bills weeks later at different times. It’s ridiculous.
Smith: Yeah, it’s extremely confusing.
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. It’s so confusing. It very much is.
Smith: But it sounds like you have the ability though to go on site. Sometimes you can go into a facility?
Nathan: Well Senior Medicare Patrol itself, we don’t do any of the actual investigating. We help gather the evidence and then we can give it to the Office of the Inspector General. They do the investigating themselves. We’re kind of the first step to determine this really kind of looks like it might be fraud. Something does not look right. And maybe it’s a billing error and it’s not fraud, and we can help seniors resolve that with their doctor’s office. Maybe they were double-billed, something that isn’t a huge undertaking. But if it looks like it might be straight-up fraud, we will refer that to the Office of the Inspector General and they will do the further investigating. They are the ones, by the way, who have the key to the law behind them.
Smith: And you may not have an answer to this – I’m not really sure, but in the field of what we do, which is negligence, Georgia is a pretty bad offender out of the 50 states. In regards to the 60 billion that we lose every year from fraud, how does Georgia rank? Are we a bad offender or are we somewhere in the middle?
Nathan: We’re pretty high up on the list. A lot of the fraud that we estimate, it’s very hard to capture the full data because some are just not reported as well.
Smith: Yeah, well that’s the nature of fraud is that they’re hiding it from you.
Nathan: So much fraud, unfortunately, they get away with it and seniors never know and it’s happening right now in the state, unfortunately. But Georgia is certainly no exception to the rule. Fraud is very rampant in this area. Typically the Atlanta area and the metro is one of the higher in the state, of course.
Smith: Oh wow. And that’s a very interesting thing that you brought up just now is that number of how much we lose to fraud is really a number of how much we caught that we have lost to fraud.
Smith: It’s a much higher number, which is amazing. That is an amazingly high number for fraud. I mean that’s just – I don’t think people fully understand how large that number is.
Schenk: And Nathan, once you get that information, it goes over to the Office of the Attorney General?
Nathan: Inspector General.
Schenk: Inspector General, okay. So is there a particular department of the Inspector General? Is that all that they handle? How is it divided once it gets there, do you know?
Nathan: To be honest with you, I don’t know exactly how they handle it on that end department-wise. I know they’re the ones who have the keys to the law behind them to sometimes it’s like pulling a thread. If a person defrauding’s new, chances are they are defrauding others. So it’s going to be a whole company assigned to pulling that thread and you figure out this person is getting fraudulently charged and it’s this whole network of individuals who are defrauding these doctors or it can be a whole company or a whole agency. Someone’s pulling that thread, finding that one person and getting that confirmed fraud, and then you see the dominos start to fall.
Smith: And I think one way to look at it is that it starts with SMP collecting this information, passing it onto the Office of the Inspector General, and ultimately what we see a lot of times especially under Mr. Pak, B.J. Pak, who is the United States Attorney for the Northern District, is that the federal prosecutors are going to go after these people. And it looks like – I’m friends with B.J. and I’ve been following a lot of his accomplishments, and it seems like they’re constantly having plea deals where they have successfully prosecuted these people for Medicare and Medicaid fraud. It’s a big deal.
Nathan: Oh definitely, and a lot of times what happens is there are big fish and there are small fish. The small fish would be the perpetrators for the big fish. So we’ll catch a small fish, get the small fish a plea deal to get the bigger fish, to get some of the doctors or the big agencies that are perpetuating this fraud.
Smith: Yeah. Yeah, and I think it’s also important to remember that at the end of the day, they’re not just taking advantage of the people but they’re taking money away from a program, which has limited funds already, which is already – and you know this just from dealing with the system – it’s rampant with neglect, and taking money away from something like this is certainly making it worse. So it’s good that you guys are doing this.
Schenk: So this might be another thing – I don’t know, I’m just throwing it out there – the concept of qui tam.
Smith: Yeah, the False Claims Act.
Schenk: So if somebody reports this Medicare fraud to you guys, do you have an understanding of whether they get a piece of the recovery?
Nathan: When you say they, who are you referring to?
Smith: So I guess what Rob’s question is is there’s a claim for False Claim Act called qui tam, and it’s like let’s say you report that somebody has defrauded Medicare or Medicaid. If the government goes after them and secures a settlement or a verdict, the reporting individual is entitled to a small percentage. It’s almost like a finder’s fee. Do you guys ever deal with that?
Nathan: I have no knowledge of that individually. I know what they do is they will track – each state has an SMP person and we track, again, “credit” that we are the ones that report to that offender, and eventually they do prosecute sometimes as the years gone by and the person is finally caught and in the legal system and end up having a verdict. So I don’t know what you’re referring to specifically. I know we do take credit that, hey, Georgia SMP was the one who first reported this person who had a role in having the eventual arrest and verdict.
Smith: And do you guys have a national convention you go to every year? I know the ombudsmen…
Nathan: We do, absolutely.
Smith: Yeah, what is yours?
Nathan: Ours was in Chicago last year and we have two programs – it’s the SMP and it’s the SHIP program, which is also a program funded by the ACL that helps seniors when they’re making their Medicare selections each year.
Schenk: Okay. So Nathan, we’ve said the number, which is 877-272-8720. That’s the number that someone should call if they suspect that there’s Medicare fraud going on. How else can they get in touch with you and your organization?
Nathan: We are on Facebook – Georgia Senior Medicare Patrol – you will find us on Facebook. That 877-272-8720 number is the most important resource to get in contact with us. That’s if you want to help us volunteer or if you suspect Medicare fraud. It’s if you want me to come out and give a presentation to some seniors. That’s really our go-to number and our resource to call to help us help you.
Schenk: So do you have any speaking engagements booked in February of 2019?
Nathan: Not…starting the February book. December’s usually a slow month for us and February starts when it picks back up after the holidays.
Schenk: Okay, well we record this far in advance, and this will be coming out on February 4th, so I wanted to promote if you’re going out and speaking.
Nathan: Yeah, I’ve got January. I don’t think I’ve got anything in February quite yet. That’s okay.
Schenk: Got you.
Nathan: They can check our Facebook page. We’ll have all that information.
Schenk: Definitely. And are you guys on Twitter?
Nathan: We are not on Twitter quite yet, but we are doing Facebook.
Schenk: Nathan, you’ve got to get on that. You’re a young man. You’ve got to get the technology on the Interwebs. Well fantastic. Is there anything else that you would – our audience consists of family members who have loved ones in nursing homes, so is there any last parting words you would give them with regards to your program or Medicare fraud in general?
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. Our goal is to empower seniors, but not just seniors, but also to empower family members of seniors to help them protect their Medicare. Of course, when health issues become so serious, some seniors aren’t able to empower themselves to protect themselves, so we really want to reach out to friends and family members to utilize information we give to help protect the family members for them.
Smith: Yeah, and I just want to say that what you guys do is so important, and I can’t stress this enough, that not only are you protecting these individuals, but it’s protecting this program, which is always at threat for not having enough funds. I mean 60 billion is an enormous amount of money to lose through fraud, and you guys are just an absolutely imperative organization out there. So I would say to anybody who’s listening, if you’ve got questions, if you’ve got a loved one who is getting Medicare, you need to be careful. It’s clearly so rampant that the very fact that you have a loved one who’s getting Medicare/Medicaid means that they are susceptible to this type of fraud.
Schenk: And Nathan, once again, thanks so much for coming on the show. This has been invaluable for our audience.
Smith: Absolutely. Thank you, Nathan.
Nathan: No, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Schenk: Right. Yeah, that’s, you know, a lot of good information. Those people are great souls going out there and fighting the good fight. The thing is, whenever you talk about money that’s in Medicare or Social Security or Medicaid, I always think for some reason of the Saturday Night Live skit from the 2000 election where it was Al Gore versus George Bush, and Al Gore kept saying “lockbox,” because we want to lock up the money in those programs to make sure we’ll have them.
Smith: “Look, what we’ll just do is we’ll get a lockbox.” Oh, I forgot about that. They really nailed him on that lockbox.
Schenk: Did you know, this is true, that that skit was so good that their campaigns analyzed it to do a better job at the next debate?
Smith: Oh really?
Schenk: Yeah, like Al Gore needed to be more human, more human-like, and George W needed to be less…
Smith: George W.
Schenk: George W. Oh, “strategery.” But at any rate, that’s what I think about when we talk about the SMPs and stuff.
Smith: But it’s also, again, I know I keep bringing this up, people don’t understand that I don’t think they fully comprehend how much money we lose every year to fraud. People are constantly being riled up by politicians on both sides of the aisle about where your tax dollars go, who’s taking advantage of you, who’s taking your jobs, who’s getting benefits and stuff, and we tend to ignore how much fraud is out there that is taking money from your tax dollars, 60 billion in Medicare fraud. Imagine if that didn’t happen and imagine they spent 60 billion – this is not the way it works – but instead, that 60 billion went to hire staffing. But still, that’s how much – 60 billion is a lot of money.
Schenk: Navigating that Medicare fraud can be more difficult than trying to eat a bowl of Fruity Pebbles with chopsticks.
Smith: And you bring that up because it is National Chopsticks Day.
Schenk: On Wednesday.
Smith: On Wednesday.
Schenk: National Chopsticks Day, I want to say, that’s February 6th – that’s good for you. You love Vietnamese food.
Smith: I do.
Schenk: You love Korean food.
Smith: I do.
Schenk: Those two – that’s like it for you. If you could only eat any one food, that would be it for you, right?
Smith: Vietnamese and Korean, yeah.
Schenk: So you’re pretty good with chopsticks.
Smith: Oh yeah. Yeah, I can use both. I have to use both hands too.
Schenk: What do you mean?
Smith: Well sometimes my right hand, because I can’t bend my thumb…
Schenk: Wait, why can’t you bend your thumb?
Smith: I cut the tendons in my thumb with a machete when I was young.
Schenk: So this is actually a new fact that I’m learning about you after 10 years.
Smith: Oh, you didn’t know that? Do you see the difference in the wrinkles? That’s because this one never bends.
Schenk: Gene, can we get a close up on Will’s thumbs?
Smith: Yeah, so I can’t bend my thumb and I love chopsticks, but sometimes this muscle gets tired, and so I have to use my left hand because my hand won’t…
Schenk: So you would say you’re ambidextrous with chopsticks?
Smith: Yes. I have to be.
Schenk: Well Wednesday is your day.
Smith: Yeah, Chopsticks Day.
Schenk: We’ll get you some – what’s the best place on Buford Highway for Vietnamese?
Smith: Nam Phong.
Schenk: If you are familiar with Atlanta, then you know Buford Highway.
Schenk: And so on Buford Highway, there’s a lot of Vietnamese restaurants among other restaurants.
Smith: The best banh mi is Lee’s Bakery. The best pho is Nam Phong or Pho de Lao, also Kua Hwang, which is 5150 Buford Highway. It’s a little hole in the wall place.
Schenk: Like Van Halen 5150?
Smith: I don’t know.
Schenk: Anyways, before we ramble on any longer…
Smith: Let’s just go ahead….
Schenk: Let’s just go ahead and wrap it. So this will conclude this episode of the Nursing Home Abuse Podcast. You can consume new episodes every Monday morning either on your favorite podcast listening application, whether that be Stitcher, Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, Pod Puppies, or you can watch. You can watch us on the YouTube channel or at our – I just looked directly in the lights for some reason – or you can check us out on our website, which is NursingHomeAbusePodcast.com. With that, we will see you next time.
Smith: See you next time.