How do I get my loved one’s nursing home records?

Episode 85
Categories: Legal Procedure, Resources

How do I get my loved one’s nursing home records?

Nursing home records and medical records in general can be expensive to obtain, especially when finding them for a third party.  There are different laws for finding medical records, which include the HIPAA and HITECH acts. In today’s episode, nursing home abuse attorneys Rob Schenk and Will Smith discuss finding nursing home records and which method is least expensive with guest Ryan Locke, lawyer at Locke Law Firm.

Schenk: Hello out there once again and welcome to the Nursing Home Abuse Podcast. My name is Rob Schenk.

Smith: And I’m Will Smith.

Schenk: And we are your co-hosts for this episode. A lot of fantastic things in this episode – we’re going to be talking about how to get literally the medical records, documents from the nursing home if you have a loved one and it’s a resident of a nursing home and you want to know what is contained in the plan of care documents or care plan documents.

Smith: Care plan documents.

Schenk: Both terms used equally – or what’s in the nurses’ notes, progress notes, these types of things – you can request these records if you so desire, and we are going to have on the show today a fellow attorney to guide us through what is entailed in this process. Will, who is our guest today?

Smith: We’re going to have our colleague Ryan Locke on today. Ryan is an attorney here in Atlanta. He represents people who’ve been injured and people who’ve been unfairly convicted. His office is here in Midtown Atlanta. He’s a former public defender and he uses the same passion and relentless advocacy for his clients today. He’s also an adjunct professor at Emory University School of Law.

Schenk: Adjunct.

Smith: He hosts his own podcast about appellate practice and maintains comprehensive resources on his website for other lawyers, including a guide to obtaining medical records under the HITECH Act.

Schenk: Which is even though we have offices within a stone’s throw of each other, that’s actually how we came to know Ryan Locke is through that website, which under the HITECH law, which is a federal law about obtaining records from hospitals, nursing homes, that kind of thing, and Ryan’s webpage for that – if any attorneys are listening, that is a fantastic resource.

Smith: Yeah, it is.

Schenk: We’ll let Ryan explain how to get to that, what the website actually is. I don’t have it off-hand, but it’s fantastic. That’s how we know him. But the guy is smart, he’s a great dude. Ryan, welcome to the show.

Ryan: Why thank you very much for having me.

Schenk: All right. Ryan, we were just mentioning before we brought you on air about your – you have this website that’s geared towards attorneys, providing attorneys with information on how to get medical records. But what we kind of skipped over is you have also a podcast that you host about appellate practice, and I was mentioning to Will that this guy is a jack of all trades, like he’s fantastic. And I feel like I know you because I’ve listened to you as a guest on several other podcasts, so I knew the sound of your voice and everything before we even brought you on. It’s really interesting, but I just wanted to give you high-fives and shout-outs for that HITECH website as well as your podcast about appellate practice.

Ryan: Well I really appreciate those kind words, thank you.

Schenk: No problem. So as we were talking about before we went on air, Ryan, our practice focuses primarily on the representation of family members of loved ones who have been hurt in a nursing home. And a part of that practice is acquire medical records, but to back up a little bit more, sometimes our potential clients, before they even seek us out, if they have a suspicion that something’s not right, if their loved one has been in and out of the hospital and they don’t know what the 411 is and they want to acquire records, kind of the point of the show today is to give them the ammunition they need if they wanted to on their own to go and get records from either the nursing home itself or the hospital, and we know that you’re an expert on that and we’ve used your website a time or two ourselves.

How do I get nursing home records for a loved one?

So can you just walk us through the basics of a person wanting to get literal paper documents or electronic documents – it doesn’t matter, I want to know what’s in my loved one’s medical records, how do we go about doing that?

Ryan: Well it will depend on whether your loved one is still alive or deceased. And in either way, the easiest way to get medical records for a loved one is to have them sign a healthcare power of attorney that names you as their agent. And in that way, when they’re alive, you can go and get medical records. If they’ve passed, then federal law allows you to go and get medical records if you’ve been named in the healthcare power of attorney.

So if people remember one thing from the next 20 minutes or half hour, it’s talk with your loved one about what they want their final days to look like with an advanced directive and get a healthcare power of attorney if they’re going to be in a hospital, a nursing home, somewhere where you may need to go get some medical records for whatever reason.

The HITECH Act and how to use it to get nursing home records

Now to get them from places is pretty easy, and there’s no magic that we lawyers have in getting records. Everyone gets them the same way. You just ask for them. And under this federal law called the HITECH Act, you just have to write the provider a letter and say, “Hey, my name is Ryan Locke. I want my medical records. Please send them to me on a CD. I’ll pay for the cost of the CD, 6.50 is the federal standard rate, and postage.” It usually comes out to about 10 bucks.

So if your family member is alive and they’re able to request their own record, have them do it. It’ll cost you about 10 bucks no matter how long it is. You can also request it in paper, but they’ll charge you for the paper. It’ll be – I mean if the records are lengthy, it can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars. I requested one – they billed me $5,000 before I showed them that it was the HITECH request.

Schenk: Sure, and let me interject in there really quickly, Ryan. So let’s take that for example then. Let’s say the loved one has no issues with requesting the records themselves, so let’s take away the issue with the power of attorney or anything like that. The resident him or herself is requesting the records.

Without having to go line by line, what is necessary on the piece of paper? And for the first example, we’ll do the HITECH Act that you mentioned, the one that you’re requesting it for electronic copies. What’s essential to be on the request?

What documentation is needed to get nursing home records?

Ryan: The law requires very little to be on the request. The law just requires that it’s addressed to the provider, that it says you’re asking for the records electronically, if you want them sent to a third party like your spouse, your lawyer, another doctor, or if you just want them sent to you – “Send them to me,” and then your signature. And that’s it.

Schenk: Wow, it’s pretty simple.

Ryan: It’s extremely easy. You could handwrite a HITECH request in about three minutes. It’s extremely simple. And Congress made it that way because they wanted people to have access to their medical records. What I would also think about – this always trips me up in my practice – is requesting the proper dates of service. You’ll probably want to include that on the letter so that if you’re requesting records from your hospital, say you were born at that hospital and you say, “Give me all your records,” well you might get 30 years of records and you’ve got to toss all that and you just don’t want or need it.

Schenk: So when you say dates of service, you mean literally the dates you want the documents. So as you mentioned, in our example, it might be you only want the documents from the last six months, so therefore you wouldn’t necessarily need to write, “I want from, let’s say, January 1 of 2018 to present.” Otherwise you’re going to get everything that you’ve ever had at the hospital.

Ryan: Exactly.

Schenk: Okay.

Ryan: Exactly. And it’s that simple. And some facilities have their own HITECH form that they want you to fill out. I don’t think that’s allowed under federal law, but it’s usually easier just to fill it out and give it to them. Some places will have an online portal where you can go on and request your records online. They’ll either fulfill it themselves or they’ll use a third-party service. There are services like ChartSwap or SyOc that will fulfill them, do the medical records function provide. But generally it’s all the same. Ask them, “I want my medical records. Please send them to me. I want them on a CD in PDF format. My name is Ryan Locke. Here’s my signature.” That’s enough.

Are nursing home records kept in electronic form?

Smith: Now Ryan, what we deal with are nursing homes and these nursing homes are oftentimes, in the 159 counties that we have in Georgia, you can imagine that some of these nursing homes are very basic. They’re not very advanced. And I don’t know if they have them in an electronic format. Are they required to keep them in electronic format?

Ryan: They’re not. And the HITECH Act was essentially a deal where they said, “Providers, we will give you grants from the federal government to start using electronic medical records hosting and services and that kind of thing.”

Smith: Got you.

Ryan: “But in exchange, if you have them all in PDF format in your system, you can’t print them out and charge people per page. If they want them electronically and you can provide them that way, then do it.”

I found that the big medical providers, big organizations like hospitals, organizations with a lot of doctors or surgeons, they’re all on board already and they know the deal. Where I run into trouble is small providers, a podiatrist in a small town where he’s the doctor, his wife is the bookkeeper and they just don’t really run into this stuff. I’ve found that by educating them about the HITECH Act, usually they will charge less than what you would pay under the Georgia Statutory Rate per page rate, because they’re just happy to get you’re the record and not go copy 800 pages. If you’re like, “Hey, if you guys could just email this to me, I’ll pay you 25, 30, 40 bucks,” and they’re just happy to do that and not spend a day dealing with this.

Does a power of attorney help under the HITECH Act?

Schenk: Right. And so Ryan, you mentioned what the individual resident can do if they have the capacity to request their records from the nursing home. Can you walk us through what would be essential and required if that individual was working through a loved one that had a healthcare power of attorney? What would be required for that individual, the power of attorney, to request the documents on behalf of the loved one?

Ryan: Under the HITECH Act, it’s the same thing. You just need to include that power of attorney.

Schenk: And what about a HIPAA release? Is that required?

Ryan: Under the HITECH Act, no, a HIPAA release is not required. I would suggest including one anyways. On my request, sometimes I’ll include them and I’ll say, “Hey look, you may need to call me about this request and talk to me about this protected health insurance, so here’s a HIPAA authorization on here so you can do that.” If you’re a relative, you probably want to do that anyways. See, I imagine that the healthcare power of attorney will probably also be a HIPAA release – there’s probably language in that, but I would look to make sure.

Schenk: And for the audience, Ryan, can you explain what a HIPAA release is?

Ryan: Yeah, so there’s this federal law that passed in ’96, the Health Insurance Affordability and Accountability Act, and we call it HIPAA, and it’s kind of the Bible of medical records protected health information, and it’s the law that governs what doctors can reveal to other people, who they can send medical records to, the whole shebang.

And so a HIPAA release will usually be a form and you’ll have to fill it out with the name of the patient, the relationship to the patient, the date of birth and all this stuff, and then sign it at the bottom. And it’s kind of the standard of release that everyone uses to get medical records or talk about medical stuff. It’s essentially a piece of paper that says, “Hey, you’re allowed to talk about my medical stuff with the person identified on this release.”

The trick in using it to request records is if you use that HIPAA release under Georgia state law, they can charge you per page for the records they give you. The cost will be astronomical. But if you use a HITECH request, that’s a simple letter – “Hey, please send me my medical records on a CD.” It’ll cost you about 10 bucks. So you want to make sure that if you’re requesting records and you know that there are going to be a lot of pages – maybe 20 or 30 pages, not a big deal – if you know it’s going to be hundreds or thousands of pages, you want to make sure you use that HITECH request, sending the letter, and that you have a HIPAA authorization in reserve in case they call you up and say, “Hey, we want to talk to you about this, but we need an authorization to do so.”

What happens if the nursing home will not give me the medical records?

Smith: Here’s a question, Ryan. It’s one thing having a law that says you have to do something, but does it have any enforcement? What happens if they don’t follow through?

Ryan: It does. The Office of Civil Rights and Health and Human Services, which is the federal agency that deals with all these laws, if people aren’t following, if medical providers aren’t following these laws, you can complain to the Office of Civil Rights – they will launch an investigation and they will impose penalties on medical providers if they’re jerking you around.

I found that – I’ll say I have no personal experience in medical providers getting imposed penalties, but I’ve found as soon as you complain – and it’s easy, there’s an online form that you fill out on the Health and Human Services webpage, once you do the complaint, the medical providers are immediately notified that someone has filed a complaint, and then they get those records to you pretty quick.

Smith: Right.

Ryan: It seems to be that lighting that fire gets the results that you want. So there is a stick involved where if providers are jerking you around, then you can kind of drop the hammer on him. I’ve found that HITECH’s been around for a decade, so I’ve found that most providers know about it. And the ones that don’t are either real small town providers that have never had to deal with it or don’t really deal with people requesting records a lot, like podiatrists, dentists, that kind of thing, or providers that simply don’t use any electronic medical records software, which surprisingly some providers still do everything in paper, everything handwritten, the whole thing.

How will I receive the nursing home records?

Schenk: So the family member has request the HITECH, the medical records from the nursing home – how is it coming to them? I think you mentioned it was a CD, but on the CD, what can they expect? What kind of format, that kind of thing?

Ryan: The provider is required to send the records to you in the format that you request, and in a format that’s able to be read by you. The only exception is sometimes if you request these specialized imaging files, say if someone got an MRI, well the image that the radiologist looks at is not the kind of thing you can pull up on your computer without some specialized software. A lot of times if they send that to you, they’ll include the software on the disc, but that’s the only kind of exception where things might get a little iffy, you might not be able to pull it up unless you have the right thing. But for your day-in, day-out medical records, they’ll send you a CD. Pop that CD into your CD drive. There’ll be a PDF on it. You open it up, there’s the medical records.

Schenk: And under the HITECH act, it’ll have to come through a CD? This is not something that can be emailed to you? Or maybe not? In other words, if the resident, if they don’t have a CD player or a CD drive on their computer – they only have a computer, maybe this wouldn’t be a good option to ask for electronic records?

Smith: Yeah, I think it’s a bad question.

Schenk: It’s a bad question.

Smith: Let’s go back and pretend you didn’t ask that stupid question. So they can’t put in a CD but they have email?

Schenk: Look, they don’t have a computer, they have no knowledge, but they have email…

Smith: Is there a channel on DirecTV you can send this to? Sorry, Ryan.

Schenk: Yeah, I’m not editing that out either.

Smith: Hold on man, we’re going to start over, just for a second.

Schenk: Okay, so – I don’t care. That was a dumb question. Let’s keep that.

Ryan: No, but they can email it.

Schenk: Oh, okay.

Ryan: Like that’s permissible. A lot of providers won’t because they think the law says you can’t, but the law says you can. Some providers will.

Schenk: Okay. But you have to have an email address to get the email though. That’s the most important. That’s the most important lesson you can take away.

Smith: And you have to have a computer to access that email.

Can I have nursing home records emailed to me?

Schenk: I’m just saying you can also get email. In a roundabout way, that was kind of what my question was going, like I don’t have a laptop computer, I don’t have a CD drive, but I can look at my phone. So that’s an option for some of these people, which many of our clients fall in that category. They can have it emailed to them, and as long as they have the appropriate Adobe Acrobat on their phone, they can look at the records on their phone. It comes back around. Sorry, go ahead, Ryan.

Ryan: I mean let’s say because some of my clients are like this too where they don’t have a computer but they have a phone, and they want to request the records by email, well they can either request the records be emailed to themselves and then it’s in their email and they can forward it or they can go to the library and print it out if they want, they can forward it to a lawyer, but you can also, in this HITECH request, ask for the records to be sent to a third party. So you can easily say, “Hey, I’m Ryan Locke, and I want to request my records. Please email an electronic copy to my lawyer, Schenk Law. Here’s their email address.” Send. And the provider, they’re not required to use email, but they’re certainly permitted to do it.

Smith: What is the number one thing, or a couple of top things that you see that are problems when people are requesting records through the HITECH Act?

Top problems with requesting records under HITECH

Ryan: It’s the same problems that we face as lawyers, that people just face when requesting medical records. I think one is you may not realize how many different providers are actually treating you, so if you go to a hospital, let’s say I’m in a car wreck and I’ve got to go to the ER, well the ER physician will treat me, and the records they generate will be held by the hospital, but the billing records that they have are held by a separate entity. Radiologists may do some imaging, but they do a CT scan to make sure that my neck’s okay, but they’re not employees of the hospital, they’re independent contractors, and so that imaging may be held by a separate entity and only the report is included in the medical records.

So I think it’s important to when you’re requesting records from an entity like that where there might be a lot of different thumbs in the pie, the first thing to do is just read the records and make sure you have everything you want. You may come across an MRI report and the MRI report says everything looks normal, and you may not want to get the actual imaging because you say, “Eh, it’s not really important.” Or maybe you do so you can have some other doctor look at it to make sure that they did it right. Then you’ve got to make sure you get that from another source.

I think number two is you make sure you get the dates of service right, and I can’t tell you how many times I requested records and I’ve included the date of service, but I made a mistake and did 2017 or did 2018, and they come back and say, “Ah, we don’t have any records,” because they treat those dates of service seriously. So you want to make sure that one, your dates of services are correct – the dates of services is the date range in which you want records – and number two, you can use that to kind of limit your costs. If you’ve had to go to the ER five times this year, but the only records you’re interested in getting are the lost time, tell them. Say, “I only want records from May 23rd to May 28th.” And they’ll send you only those.

Schenk: And that’s an important point for our audience to listen to because oftentimes, at least in our experience, sometimes these residents have been in these nursing homes for – we’ve got one client who’s been in the nursing home for 20 years before something happened.

Smith: Even if it’s cheap through the HITECH, I don’t want 20 years of records.

Schenk: So wary of maybe if a loved one saw a bedsore on the resident six months ago, you might not just want six months ago, but you want to go back a little bit further in time than that, so as Ryan mentioned, be wary to get the dates of service right, but also think about whatever the problem is and whatever you want to read about, when it might be happening or when it might have been documented – it might not be the date that you saw it. It might be 18 months before that, so kind of keep that in mind in terms of when you are making that HITECH request with regards to the dates of service.

Smith: What about the fee that they can – it’s not just the per page or how voluminous the records are – can they charge for searching for these records? That does take man hours in itself.

Ryan: The answer is no. Well I guess the answer is yes, but it’s built into the cost.

Smith: Ah, I got you.

How much will the nursing home records cost?

Ryan: Right. So they’re allowed to compute that cost in a couple of different ways. One way is the actual, kind of the average cost it takes to search through these records. No one computes it that way. Or they’re allowed to charge a flat $6.50 and almost everyone charges it that way. So they’re allowed to charge the $6.50 to find the record, whatever cost the CD costs, a couple bucks, and then whatever the postage costs to mail it to you, a couple bucks. And so generally these requests, they’ll go between 10 and 20 bucks or however – it could be 30 pages, it could be 30,000 pages a record, it’s just going to be about between 10 or 20 bucks. And that’s the real magic of the HITECH Act is it really affords people to get their own record.

Schenk: And I was just about to say, Ryan, because I think we’ve breezed over this, and you and I and Will know this as attorneys because we deal with this headache every day in terms of getting medical records, but for the audience member out there that might not know, without the HITECH, walk us through the cost and what happens with that. And we’ll say it’s 5,000 pages.

Ryan: Right. I actually had a request that was 5,000 pages, and thankfully I had sent in a HITECH request and they tried to bill me the old rate and I said, “No, no, no.” The old way under Georgia law, they’re allowed to charge you per page they print out, so it’s a tiered structure where it gets cheaper the more pages they print out, but it’s a dollar a page beginning, and it’s just all way more expensive than you would think.

And so not only will they – you request the records and then they send you an invoice and say, “Oh, you want 5,000 pages? It’s going to be $9,000.” And then you say, “Well $9,000 is a lot but this is important, so I guess I’ll pay it.” And so you pay the $9,000. And then they mail you like 10 or 12 bankers boxes of documents, and then you say, “Oh, now I’ve got a living room full of medical documents. I’ve got to get these to the lawyer.” They’ve got to load them up somehow and get them over to the lawyer. Lawyer’s going to put them all on the conference table and go, “Well shoot, now my staff’s got to spend two days scanning all this in so that I can look at them.” And then finally after all this work, you can get to the real valuable work, which is reading the medical records and understanding what happened.

Schenk: Exactly.

Ryan: But now, under the HITECH Act, you go, “I want my medical records,” they send a CD in the mail to you, or you say, “I want my medical records. Please send them to my lawyer,” and they send the CD to the lawyer. You pop it in the computer, save it into the case file, double click to open it up and start to do the important work. It literally saves thousands of dollars off the cost and days off the preparation.

Schenk: Without a doubt. We can’t underscore that enough to the listener. I mean before, like when we would send HITECH and they would still send us the invoice, what’s the highest invoice we’ve gotten? $12,000? I think we got a $12,000 invoice once for medical records.

Smith: Yeah, easily. They were all routinely, because our cases, we’re dealing with very voluminous records, and they were routinely $1,000, anywhere from six to $2,000 was routine, which is a lot.

Schenk: Yeah, that’s a lot.

Smith: You talk about 10 or 15 cases…

Schenk: It’s a racket. It’s a racket.

Ryan: Oh yeah, it is. And the real terrible thing is it’s coming out of the client’s pocket. I mean I’m paying for it ahead of time, but the client is going to pay it on the back end when we settle the case or we win the trial. So I’m really passionate about this because it’s another way to save the client money. I mean they’ve already paid the medical provider for the medical treatment. The medical provider is earning money off of these medical records. And then they’re trying to sell them back to you for stuff they’ve already did?

Schenk: Yeah, it doesn’t seem right. Well Ryan, walk us through how our audience members can get a hold of you, and definitely tell us, number one, the website that features the information we’ve been talking about today about the HITECH Act and how to get medical records – it’s really in-depth and it’s a great resource not just for attorneys but for people who have loved ones in nursing homes, and tell us about how to listen to that podcast.

Ryan: Sure. So you can get a hold of you, you can go to my website, it’s All my contact information is on there. If you go to, that’s my HITECH guide. It’s written for lawyers in requesting these records, but if you are not a lawyer, you can still use this site. I have a sample letter on there that you can download and use. If they give you pushback on the HITECH Act, I have sample responses you can use if they try to jerk you around. There’s a link to the Office of Civil Rights and HHS where you can file a complaint. So everything you need is there to kind of take control of this medical records process and request the records that you need.

My podcast – you’re either going to be into it or you won’t. It’s Georgia Appellate Review. It’s available everywhere podcasts are sold, and if you want to learn about what appellate lawyers do and some insider baseball about that, give it a listen. If you are not a lawyer, I will not fault you if you’re no interested. But if you’re into that kind of thing, stop by. We think it’s pretty cool.

Schenk: I loved it. Like I said, Ryan has on that podcast literal oral arguments from the Georgia Court of Appeals as well as interviews from appellate attorneys about how do they construct their arguments, how they get the cases, why they take these cases. I think it’s interesting. You’re right, it’s a niche market you’re going to but I thought it was very cool.

Smith: And what practice areas are you serving clients from, Ryan?

Ryan: So I do two things. I represent people who are injured, primarily in car wrecks or if you’re injured on someone else’s property, if you’re injured at work, something like that, and I represent people who are unfairly convicted. And a lot of the people I represent who are unfairly convicted, I am appointed as a contract public defender. I was a public defender when I first came out of law school, kind of continued that service with that. But I do take private clients every once in a while. So if you want to hire me, most people hire me because they were injured in a car wreck or on someone else’s property or at work, something like that.

Schenk: And just to be clear, to tie it together, when you say unfairly convicted, you’re not a defense attorney. You’re an appellate attorney – you take things up on appeal and argue them on appeal.

Ryan: That’s right. I used to have a criminal trial practice. I still do a few cases every now and again, but my main focus and where I think I can do the most good for people is if you’ve been convicted and you need to appeal that conviction, that’s where I come in.

Schenk: Fantastic. Well Ryan, you’ve provided invaluable information for our audience today. We really appreciate you coming on. You’ve been fantastic and we appreciate it. And go check out the podcast good-byes correctly. I feel it’s okay with Ryan because he has a podcast himself.

Ryan: It’s so hard.

Schenk: Yeah, it’s difficult, like, “Get out of here,” but I don’t want to say that. “Hang up already!” So Ryan, thanks for being on the show. We really appreciate it.

Smith: Absolutely man, thank you.

Ryan: Thanks guys, I had fun.

Schenk: All right, well that was fantastic.

Smith: Interesting stuff.

Schenk: What else is going on? It’s fall.

Smith: September is Daniela’s birthday.

Schenk: I was afraid you were going to mispronounce her name again. It’s Daniela.

Smith: Oh, but you weren’t afraid that I remembered her birthday and her fiancé didn’t?

Schenk: That’s correct. Daniela, in the span of this show, has gone from new girlfriend to now a fiancé.

Smith: To now a fiancé. She’s also gone from Danielle to Daniela.

Schenk: No – Danielle, Danyiel, Danieller – I mean there’s been a lot of reiterations of this person’s name.

Smith: And we’ll never know really which one is her name.

Schenk: Because we can’t read the birth certificate because it’s in Portuguese. So her birthday is the 13th. Today’s Monday – Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday – so it’s Thursday, the 13th. I hope it’s the 13th. Somebody’s the 14th. That’s my niece Coco I think.

Smith: Oh well and another really good friend of ours, Sonia Lakani, is September 15th.

Schenk: Oh, like a very important week of birthdays.

Smith: Yeah.

Schenk: Right. And she’s 28. Sonia is – turning 28.

Smith: Lakani is…

Schenk: Turning 28.

Smith: No she’s not. I don’t understand the joke here.

Schenk: Like everybody’s young, you know what I’m saying?

Smith: Oh.

Schenk: Unless she actually is turning 28 and I hit it on the head.

Smith: No, she’s in her 30s.

Schenk: Okay. You don’t understand that women, usually you don’t tell their age, so you’re like, “Oh, I’m turning 28 again this year,” or turning 29, you know what I mean?

Smith: Okay.

Schenk: Mr. Literal Will Smith – “She did not turn 28. I know her better than you.”

Smith: Yeah. Sorry, Sonia Lakani. Great trademark lawyer lady.

Schenk: Okay. Well that concludes this episode. Happy birthday Daniela and Sonia.

Smith: Yeah, Daniela’s turning 13.

Schenk: And Coco. Yeah, she’s not turning 13. Anyways, you can get this podcast if you want, whatever you want, on Stitcher, iTunes, Spotify.

Smith: Go to

Schenk: And our YouTube channel. And with that, we’ll see you next time.

Smith: See you next time.


Thanks for tuning into the Nursing Home Abuse Podcast. Nothing said on this podcast, either by the hosts or the guest, should be construed as legal advice, nor is intended to create an attorney-client relationship between the hosts or their guests and the listeners. New episodes are available every Monday on Spotify, iTunes, Stitcher or on your favorite podcast app as well as on YouTube and our website, Again, that’s See you next time.